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Post by Dr. Nemmers on Jun 22, 2024 18:56:34 GMT
So, after we've learned a bit about the Ubermensch according to the video, I wonder whether we see Fred Daniels as a good example of this ideal? Certainly we wouldn't say he's a good fit above ground, but perhaps once he goes underground he grows into this role? What enables him to become the overman while underground?
Also, our other term this week is rebellion, as discussed in my Sample Cheat Sheet and conversation. How do we see Fred fulfilling the Camus ideal of rebellion?
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Post by mjunious on Jun 23, 2024 2:56:33 GMT
I would say that by the time we get to part II of the novel, Fred Daniels has fully transformed into the Ubermensch, with his reorientation of values, morals, etc. It is interesting that in our modern idea and stories of superheroes, we have similar plot points leading to this transformation (though they are less jarring, since they are rooted in a fantasy). Think of Batman, since he is also a vigilante: something traumatic happens then he retreats into a secret lair where he operates by a different set of rules to protect the lesser society that he has elevated himself from. The initial moment when he hears the church through the walls of his underground lair, his "Uber-cave", is a moment of realization where there is literally a wall between him and his previous moral compass. It is also interested that for both this form of Ubermensch and the superhero, the "spoils" of their retribution is ultimately meaningless in their mind, rather it is the act of succeeding in the retributive recompense that is valued.
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Post by Dr. Nemmers on Jun 23, 2024 17:41:43 GMT
Right, and he quickly becomes this sort of dark (literally) avenging, amoral sort of "superman"-- it's a very stark and sudden progression, he's very different from the Fred Daniels aboveground. I like the Batman comparison, in that Fred has an alter ego and different appearance while above/ below ground.
In one passage where he accidentally emerges into the light of day, an unsuspecting woman buys a bunch of grapes from him, and Fred is instantly back to his above-ground self, stammering and saying "ma'am" and "sir."
But below ground, he steals, he sneaks around, and he's devoted, as you mention, to "retributive recompense."
Other thoughts on how Fred becomes the Underground Ubermensch? Would that be a good superhero nickname for him?
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Post by dianarmartinez on Jun 24, 2024 21:05:51 GMT
I think that going through everything in the first half of the novel pushed him to reflect on his life. He tries to ensure that some wrongs are set right, but he can't speak. He is forced to reflect when he goes into the manhole and thinks about his baby. Him pushing the baby away in the sewer was a way to fully close the circle of rejection when he had to abandon his own child. He had a moment of connection with the dead baby, and he had to come to terms with the fact that he was not going to see his baby anymore. I
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Post by dcomeaux on Jun 25, 2024 0:32:42 GMT
Right, and he quickly becomes this sort of dark (literally) avenging, amoral sort of "superman"-- it's a very stark and sudden progression, he's very different from the Fred Daniels aboveground. I like the Batman comparison, in that Fred has an alter ego and different appearance while above/ below ground. In one passage where he accidentally emerges into the light of day, an unsuspecting woman buys a bunch of grapes from him, and Fred is instantly back to his above-ground self, stammering and saying "ma'am" and "sir." But below ground, he steals, he sneaks around, and he's devoted, as you mention, to "retributive recompense." Other thoughts on how Fred becomes the Underground Ubermensch? Would that be a good superhero nickname for him? I was also so caught off guard at how quickly he reverted to being his "normal" self when he was caught in the fruit store. He automatically thought that he was going to be branded as a murderer and everyone wanted to kill him. But then just as quickly he retreated to his underground cave. I found that small section to be very interesting. Honestly, when you have to read for a class, sometimes the reading (for me) does not hold my interest. I really had a difficult time putting this one down. I am glad this was on our list! |
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Post by connorswauger on Jun 27, 2024 1:19:42 GMT
Right, and he quickly becomes this sort of dark (literally) avenging, amoral sort of "superman"-- it's a very stark and sudden progression, he's very different from the Fred Daniels aboveground. I like the Batman comparison, in that Fred has an alter ego and different appearance while above/ below ground. In one passage where he accidentally emerges into the light of day, an unsuspecting woman buys a bunch of grapes from him, and Fred is instantly back to his above-ground self, stammering and saying "ma'am" and "sir." But below ground, he steals, he sneaks around, and he's devoted, as you mention, to "retributive recompense." Other thoughts on how Fred becomes the Underground Ubermensch? Would that be a good superhero nickname for him? I think another thing to mention is how he completely gives himself to this new life underground. Near the end of the novel when he finds his way back to the officers that tortured him, he keeps referring to the sewers as “home”. When he finally decided to come out, he didn’t even think of going to visit his wife or know that he had a son. Through Camus’s rebellion I think that shows how he has left his old life behind for an existence where value isn’t placed solely in material things. Crossing into the sewer was like stepping into a new world with new rules. |
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